Skip to the Interview

This week on Cut to the Take, we have yet another great interview with female filmmakers who are leaving a mark in the industry! Suzanne Smith and Sylvia Solf have just premiered their work Joy Dancer (2024) at the Edinburgh Film Festival, where I’ve been lucky enough to be able to see it on the big screen!

Joy Dancer follows choreographer and body artist Gregory Maqoma as he explores his past and his roots, and expressed them through the movement of his body. This work is part of a crucial shift that is taking place in international cinema, where more diverse stories are being told and promoted.

Join us as we talk about diversity, leadership and the power of artistic movements!

The creative duo behind Joy Dancer

Suzanne Smith is a documentary filmmaker and artist who works in sculpture and experiemental film. Her focus is the study of art and creativity, and how these areas can help heal and bring together communities. This has led her to co-direct her first feature documentary, Joy Dancer.

Sylvia Solf is a dancer, journalist and filmmaker. These professions all come together in Joy Dancer, also her first feature documentary as co-director. In it, she pours her interest for global stories and her fascination for body memory and communication.

Talking to Suzanne Smith and Sylvia Solf

Suzanne and Sylvia appeared on my computer screen less than 24 hours after the world premiere of their film: Joy Dancer (2024). The irony of being the ones in front of a recording instead of behind not lost on them as we started our chat.

Lucy Muñoz: What made you want to become filmmakers for this project?

Suzanne Smith: I had another career. I was a development economist working internationally and I met such interesting people. There was one point in my work where I was really focused on leadership. I was going around different countries, especially countries that had been through some kind of conflict (like) civil war, and you meet these amazing people who are trying to help the country heal and people deal with their trauma and people understanding what each other has been through, so that they feel a bit of empathy and begin the reconciliation process. Then, I also meet people using art to do that. So the two strengths sort of made me think, “I want to do something about raising the profile of these leaders because they’re just really inspiring people”.

Around the same time, I just decided to flip my career. I wanted to do something more visual, storytelling via visuals, and started filmmaking. That took a few years to just get going, but then I’d known Sylvia for many years and I knew she was interested in film and had studied film as well. We were at a party together, and we said, “We must make a film!”.

Sylvia can talk about the genesis of this particular idea, but I think it reflected some prior interest that we had that we wanted to develop into a film or a series of films.

“Suzanne and I connected over this question, how do you move on in societies that have been torn apart?”

Sylvia Solf: I studied film in undergrad in London, and then my careers took me in different routes: journalism, NGOs working with human rights… and then working with Suzanne in international organisations on inequality. But for me, the visual was always the most powerful.

Then, my other discipline or art form has always been dance. I’ve moved around a lot in my life, and it’s always been a community for me. It’s been really meaningful in my life, but I can never talk about dance in words. It’s really difficult. So putting the two together, and Suzanne and I connected over this question, how do you move on in societies that have been torn apart? Particularly, how artists deal with history, and how do you deal with that with your body, your physical expression being dance, or theatre, or music.

We wanted to tell an inspiring story, a positive story, and really go against the grain in terms of what the mainstream perception is of some of the corners of the world. So, like Suzanne said, when we met at the party we were like “let’s do something together”.

“it personified exactly what I was trying to capture in the sense of how history sits in your body”

I’ve been following artists most of my life, and I’d seen Greg perform. One of the performances we see, an excerpt actually in the film, is about his ancestor. He was exploring the very little known history of his own ancestry. He’s actually from royalty, so his great-great-great-grandfather was fighting the colonisers, both the British and the Dutch, for forty years and the way that Greg explored it and talks about it, it became a personal ritual.

It wasn’t the literal kind of historical telling, it was really exploring through his body. For me, it personified exactly what I was trying to capture in the sense of how history sits in your body, our own history and the history of our predecessors. That is regardless of which country you come from, in a way. And how you tap into that energy, and then use it for creative force.

Also, Greg is such a leader in his community. So, through a common friend of mine, a fellow dancer, we got introduced. We called him and talked of the theme of how do you explore the things that cannot be spoken, or that cannot be put in words, and how do you look at history or complexities not through a rational and analysing in black or white, but really on a deeply, visceral, emotional level. It resonated with him, and he invited us into his life. Then, five years later, here we are! So it’s been a real journey.

LM: Coming from different disciplines, even though you already knew each other, how has it been working on this particular project together?

Smith: We come from different disciplines. I’m not a dancer, but we worked together on international development for about 10 years. So we knew each other before we started working on the film, and I think we work together very well. We compliment each other very well. Sylvia may think differently, but that’s what I think.

Solf: We hadn’t worked together creatively in that sense, but it’s been really amazing. We were able to collect a community around us that really carried the film.

We had an incredible South African crew and there was a lot of serendipity in the film as well. We worked with an incredible South African cinematographer, Motheo Moeng, who developed a very close relationship with Greg. And, actually, a lot of the film community in South Africa was incredibly welcoming. We had several directors, particularly during the edit. We did rough-cuts reviews, really taking in the time and providing so much thoughtful input.

“if one doesn’t feel comfortable or doesn’t agree, we don’t do it. That lead us in the right direction in the end”

So I think it was two of us working together. As Suzanne said, we complemented each other in quite an incredible way. There are very few people that I have worked with where it’s worked so well and having this mutual respect. It was always clear for us that if one doesn’t feel comfortable or doesn’t agree, we don’t do it. That lead us in the right direction in the end.

Smith: Mostly, I think we did it great. I don’t even remember a time when we didn’t, but it was very helpful that Sylvia had a dance background and, I suppose these days, I’m more into a fine arts background. As well as film, I’m leaning into installation art and experimental film, so that made me really fascinated with the creative process as well, which I think we’ve really captured in the film. So, we had some similar interests and some different interests, which I think brought more depth to the film. She would see things that I wouldn’t see, and vice versa.

LM: You use a very invisible perspective. You respect the creative process a lot by not editing or changing much. It seems like you just follow as it flows. So, in an environment that is all movement and improv, and you never know what’s gonna happen, did you find any big challenges to follow this so invisibly?

Solf: Massive, yes! For us, one thing was clear, as you said, we wanted to respect the process. Something that’s very interesting if you’ve seen the film is that oftentimes the idea was developed in the body or music, and then afterwards they were processing. So in that sense, we thought that we respected that chronology of how the creation happened, which was quite unique.

There were multiple challenges. We had to keep a very, very small footprint in the space. For us, the focus was always on how creating impacts the performer. We were less focused on how it impacts the audience, and more in the making of, in putting all of yourself into your creations, and how that impacts you emotionally. So the focus visually was as many close-ups as possible and really capturing the motion. We didn’t necessarily want to see the whole scene and the full body movement, but to really feel, for example, Greg’s feelings very closely.

“None of us knew what was going to happen. We just had to follow it. So there wasn’t really much we could plan for, we just had to see what happened in the room”

That was possible over time because Motheo really developed a very trusting relationship with Greg, and he had done a lot of fiction, so he had no self-censorship in really going in close. Plus, he has a very lovely way about him, of being very personal and very warm, so he makes people feel really comfortable. And because Greg was allowing Motheo and us in that space, to operate that way, everybody around him did as well. So they kind of trusted Greg, “well, Greg trusts them, so I’m just gonna be myself”.

It was a combination of time and developing that trust, and then I think I made a little contribution also just knowing movement. I can sense when a sequence ends or starts and phrasing of movement, so I worked together with Motheo on that, and then he really naturally picked it up.

Then of course COVID happened, so the footprint had to be even smaller. We did one remote film shoot in South Africa, and that was only possible because that was three years into shooting, so at that point we already had a relationship. We had a community in Johannesburg that helped us tremendously, we had our crew there. And then of course Greg and everybody knew them already, so they were able to really be in that space. A lot of the rehearsal footage comes from that intimacy. It was a special time, I think, also for them because it was their first time after a lot of horrors to be together in a space and to be able to create together again.

LM: Were you surprised by Greg during the process of making the film? Or by the process itself?

Smith: I think that the improvs in those sacred spaces. There were two, the start one in the round room, and then the one on Gorée Island. None of us knew what was going to happen. We just had to follow it, so there wasn’t really much we could plan for. We just had to see what happened in the room, and Motheo, the DP, just followed it, but those were the only real unknowns.

Solf: I think those were really the serendipitous moments. So for the first, the opening, Greg took us to the Apartheid Museum because it’s a space that’s very meaningful to him. He’d done performances there. (They) opened the doors to him when he had no space for his company, but we didn’t know about the installation. We just walked in and there was some magic in the room, so he started improvising, and we captured it. That became the genesis of Broken Chord, which we ended up then following all the way to the premiere.

“putting it into words and kind of processing… I think it gives a very unique access to what it takes and what the creative process is about”

Gorée was similar but in a different way ’cause Greg had been to Gorée Island, so he suggested the location and we set it up. But, again, none of us really knew was going to happen, including Greg. The way he spoke about it afterwards, he’s like “I could never do this again”. So the creative process is not linear, we did do some editing. It’s not an easy process. They took their time to find an entry into their work, so you shoot a lot of material and you don’t end up using it.

So not necessarily in surprise, but it’s something I found really interesting. You see it in a scene where Greg transformed after the lord’s prayer into the growing. It’s one of the examples where it came out of his body. I found it so interesting that it just came out. They hadn’t choreographed it, they hadn’t planned it, and then they processed it.

It was a very interesting way of giving access also to the creative process because afterwards they were talking about it with each other, so we were able to share with the audience. They were sharing with us and the audience what is really going on. That’s quite unique. When you watch many films about the creative process, it’s in someone’s head and it’s maybe beautiful footage, and then you see things are being put together. But putting it into words and kind of processing… I think it gives a very unique access to what it takes and what the creative process is about.

LM: It is very special even as audience in front of a screen. You don’t really know what’s going on, but you can feel it. It is strange to just feel it with the heart instead of the brain. It’s really special and really well captured.

Smith: And that’s what is like watching him live, too. You know? You watch with your heart, not with your brain, and he knows that. He talks at one point to the white choir about doing it with conviction, and even though it’s a role that they may not feel comfortable with, playing the white gaze, but he tells them “do it with conviction and the audience will believe you”. And that’s how he performs. He gives everything a hundred percent, and it’s very enthralling to see someone who does it with so much conviction.

LM: It really is, and it translates very well. Would you say that’s your favourite part of the documentary? Or were there other out-of-camera moments that you enjoyed particularly?

Smith: For me, I never watched a creative process so closely before, so I loved watching and then seeing them articulate what they were trying to do and how they meet as artists with different languages. I suppose for me, the most powerful part of the film that always amazes me is the improvisation in Gorée. That’s just amazing, and also why we made a separate short of that as well.

And then, I’ve watched the film so many times, thousands of times probably, but I always tear up with the serenade at the end when the white choir is singing back to the main cast. That is such a beautiful moment of reversal as well. And Zandile, the female singer. I just about choke every time I hear her sing, her voice is just so beautiful. Yesterday I was trying to keep myself calm as I was watching it in the afternoon performance.

Solf: Yeah, I think it’s hard for me to pinpoint one moment. It’s really what Suzanne said. You have this unique entry to a collaborative creation. The improvisations were all magical ’cause we were able to just witness Greg transform in front of the camera. It’s this artist moment when you are in the zone, and it’s not really you any more, it’s something bigger than you, and to be able to actually capture that is such a privilege.

“they are in this space and it is a safe zone for them to express themselves. That engagement with Greg was really quite something magical”

Also, just to add to what Suzanne said, the conversations with the kids at the beginning. That was about an hour, and it was incredible conversations. They were probably between the age of six and fifteen, and the questions they were asking had a level of maturity that was incredible, as was the way Greg engaged with them. That is in a space in a quite difficult neighbourhood in Johannesburg. It’s a theatre space and they have a theatre programme. Outside, they deal with a lot of hardship in terms of families, alcoholism and violence. But then they are in this space and it is a safe zone for them to express themselves. That engagement with Greg was really quite something magical. Of course, we couldn’t put an hour of this into the film, but that was also a very special moment.

LM: It is so special to see how kids are completely limitless. How they have no reservations about expressing themselves, and how Gregory managed to keep that throughout his life. He goes so deep into what he’s feeling, it’s magical to see him express himself without restraint. For me it was probably the biggest takeaway. So, I wanted to ask you, what is, for you, the main message of your documentary?

Smith: Well, in some ways, exactly what you said. The transformative power of art and creativity, and finding out who you are by going inside and accessing memory. So I guess it’s something about everyone having the chance to have access to express themselves in some way, it can be dance or any form of creativity. And the other thing is a sense of, we are all human, we all have stories and it’s really important to listen to each other’s stories in order to break down walls.

Solf: Yeah, and I think you captured it really nicely when you said that you felt it in your heart and you watched with your heart. I think that’s really the beauty of dance, theatre, music… where you can connect in a human level. It doesn’t matter your background, you get what’s going on in an emotional level.

(It is important for) creative spaces and art to provide that space for us to do that. Particularly in today’s world, where we are increasingly polarised. I think having people like Greg who, through his work, wants to have a dialogue with the audience. He does tackle very difficult topics, and he’s not afraid to speak in his voice, which is through his body and movement, but he always manages to pull the audience in, and not push the audience away. I think that’s very special.

LM: I always ask a few specific questions to my interviewees. I like to interview women to share their perspective of the art world, especially cinema. So one of the questions that I like to ask is, have you encountered any setbacks for being women? And, if you have, how did you manage to overcome those?

Solf: In general, in the documentary film world, it’s more being a first-time feature documentary filmmakers. That really feels like you’re climbing a mountain. I don’t know whether that’s gender related or just because we are first-time filmmakers, but it is a really tough road to take, and there I can speak for myself, it was (possible) because it was two of us. Suzanne also kept me going.

I have filmmaker friends who did this all by themselves, but I think having our team, our partnership, really helped in pushing through whatever was coming our way. So that would be how I experienced it. I don’t know whether it’s because we’re two women or because we are first-time filmmakers, I can’t make the distinction.

Smith: I feel it’s first-time filmmakers. I was doing most of the producer side based in New York, and it is very competitive. There’s just so much going on so, with many people, you call to see if they’ll do some work for you and it’s, “Who are you? How many films have you made?”. They try to size you up and see if you are worth it. So I would say that just trying to get started in an environment like that is quite tough.

“most of my life I have just decided that if there’s a whole lot of male resistance I’m just going to ignore it and move on”

I don’t think I could’ve done the film on my own. I think it’s really good to do it with someone because it takes so much emotional energy to get through everything. Having someone you can share that with is really important.

But I also feel I’m a very driven person. All my life I’ve had these dreams about things that I want to do, and I just get on and do it. So I felt like we could always do it, it was just little things here and there that were getting on the way, but we just had to get through those and move on.

I would say that, in the US, the industry is still quite male-dominated and women do talk about the difficulties of breaking in, but personally I didn’t feel it. I think most of my life I have just decided that if there’s a whole lot of male resistance I’m just going to ignore it and move on.

LM: And what do you think could be done to improve the situation, to make it less male-dominated?

Smith: You have more representation of diverse people in the industry and it loosens up.

Solf: I think also for female filmmakers to support each other. It’s very simple, but I think that community makes a big difference. I know a couple of filmmakers, also first-time filmmakers, and just having that sounding board or someone who is going through similar things really makes a difference. The more we, as female filmmakers, support each other, it sounds very simple, but it really makes a difference.

Smith: And we didn’t actually shoot in the US. The postproduction was done there, but everything else was done in either South Africa or Senegal, and Spain. In Senegal and Spain we had some very strong women that we teamed up with. In Senegal we had the world’s best fixer, and in South Africa, mostly men, but all incredibly motivated to help, and that was fabulous. I feel like the film would have been harder to make in the US. I think the support of everyone in South Africa that we encountered really got us going.

LM: And, in terms of the future, what are your projects, your expectations?

Solf: So, we really are fascinated by this theme of exploring the world through the eyes of artists. We both travel a lot, and we really like to tell these global stories of how artists deal with different histories, it can be trauma as well, human condition… I think that’s something that we really want to continue to pursue and to provide a window into a world and into history. Again, it goes back to Suzanne’s point, to understand each other’s history, but on an emotional level. So that’s what we are planning to do, to tell more global stories.

LM: That sounds great! Lastly, is there anything you guys would like to mention that I haven’t asked about, or anything you’d like to share?

Solf: I think the world needs more people like Greg. I think spreading the word that leadership can be anywhere, really. We don’t have to look only to the classic spaces where leadership sits, in economics or politics. He is really making a diffence, not just in South Africa but beyond. So we are very happy to be able to share his story.

And shared it we have! What’s your take? Are you a female filmmaker? Whether you are just starting or already have a few projects on your belt, I’d love to hear all about it and learn about your experiences! So please don’t hesitate to contact me for a chat or an interview.

Despite the slow but steady introduction of diversity, the cinema sphere is still very much gatekept from a lot of people. Stories like yours, Suzanne’s and Sylvia’s can serve as great inspiration for others in a similar situation.

Additionally, if you’re just here to read and have some fun, don’t hesitate to let me know your thoughts in the comments section below, or leave a message in my contact page! For more reviews and cinema-related articles, check out the rest of my blog! 😀

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